Hi, just moving this post from 440 4X4's "machine shop" post, because I just realized that I JACKED that thread big-time. Sorry about that!

Year-long lurker, first-time poster here.

Just looking for a little guidance/tips on pulling the heads and getting head work done.

I know I need VSS for sure, and I overheated the engine a couple weeks ago. Sooo, while I have everything apart for the water pump (the original problem), I figure I might as well get the head work out of the way now, and be done with it. Even though I don't think I have any head warping, but who knows. I'll get the work done and new head gaskets, and I'm good to go.

Now I just have to get the heads off. Motor is staying in the car. Yeah, I know I'll be cursing that decision, but this whole project was just a water pump that progressed to head work after I got into it this far. I also will be putting in Clevite 77s underneath, so I'm doubly stupid for not pulling it. I don't know, maybe I'll end up pulling it anyway. But that's another investment in the picker and stand.

Does anyone have any DO'S/DON'TS or general tips for pulling the heads? (other than pull the engine first?) I've never gotten this far into an engine before, but so far I'm ankle-deep, upside-down into the water pump/60k, and I still feel comfortable. Everything is out up to and including the water pump, and I'm sure I can put it back together, correctly and in time. So far.

I'm not too sure about the timing/cams/heads yet. So I pull the cam shafts out, get the head work done -- then how hard is it to get the heads back together? I understand getting everything in time when the cams are in and the heads are in, but what about while I'm putting the camshafts back into the heads -- is there anything specific I need to do with that step, or will the cams just want to go in the right way?

The only proprietary tool I see so far is the timing tensioner socket wrench, which is on its way from 3sx. Am I missing any others?

I don't have the sinking feeling that I'm in over my head yet, but I DO feel like that might be just around the corner.

Pertinent facts:

'93 DOHC N/A

110k on the clock

I have the new timing belt, pulleys and 60k such on its way. I'll have to check what's additional for 120k while I'm in there.

Interesting(?) "My 3000GT" trivia:

I did 180-170-170, warm, across the front before digging in, but I didn't do the back because of the water pump leaking so bad, I was afraid of a seize or belt jump and serious timing problem. Turns out the pump is rock solid and the gasket took a crap. At least I think there was a gasket there at one time.

Hey, I'm sorry for the ridiculously long post -- but like I said, I was saving up for a year.

Thanks for any help or advice, I would appreciate it greatly!

Brett

Okay, I got the heads out last night. No big mystery with the camshafts now that I got in and looked at it. So okay, that was a lame question in the first post.

Hey, I don't know if this has ever been discussed before. But if anyone is planning on pulling their heads, you might want to consider pulling the engine to do it.

I've got the new water pump, timing tensioner, tension and idler pulleys, timing belt, thermostat, intake upper gasket and throttle body gasket. I still need to get head gaskets, intake lower gaskets, and I guess I'm looking at a new oil pump while I'm in here. Can someone see anything I'm missing? Oh yeah, and 3rd-gen lifters are on the way, too.

I'm looking at these head gaskets from FelPro. Any reason not to, on a N/A? http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product234.html

I'm thinking re-use the cam oil seals. Any problem with that?

Just curious, anyone NOT think it would be stupid to skip the oil pump at this point? I know it's good PM, but I haven't nailed down whether it crosses the line into paranoia.

Got the 3sx tension tool, and it looks like that's all I'll need for special tools. Well, except for torquing the crank pulley -- I'm thinking either an impact wrench, or do my baddest with a breaker bar?

ANY input would be greatly appreciated. I know there are many of you people that know a LOT more than me on this, and if I don't miss something or screw up something, I'll be pretty amazed, quite frankly.

Thanks!
Brett

New cams seals should come with the engine gasket kit and it's a good idea to replace them while you're in there.

_________________
06 Blue EVO 9

Hi G-ELL,

THANK YOU for the reply, much appreciated! Are you Monochrome on 3si.org, or am I confused? If that's you, I bow before your 3/S knowledge!

I wasn't planning on ordering the gasket kit, because I'm under the impression I'll be buying a lot of gaskets that I won't use. That is, assuming VSS come from Bay Speed when I have my heads there. I was thinking buy head gaskets, upper/lower intake, exhaust, throttle body, and be done. The water pump comes with, and if the oil pump doesn't come with gaskets, I'll need to buy them anyway, as they WON'T be included in the kit.

Am I way off base with that thinking? Should I just get the kit, for probably $50-$70 more than I'm spending separately, and be done with it? I don't mind the extra money if it's worth it, to do it right. But I don't want to just chuck money around, either, if I don't have to. My wife is in charge of throwing money around, not me.

THANKS again for the help,
Brett (from Green Bay. No, the other Brett. No, not that one, either. The other one.)

Biggest meanest nastiest impact gun you can find for the crank pulley.

_________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!

THANKS ttangel, sounds good -- will go with the BFIG.

I appreciate the input!

Brett

edit: Oh, by the way that reminds me -- I ended up doing the breaker-bar-on-the-ground-tap-the-starter method to get the crank pulley nut loose. That has got to be one of the scariest, most unsure moments that I've ever had working on this car. BUT, zip-clang, and it was loose. Yikes, though.

Yes, that's me. Don't bow, get me a beer.



Engine gasket kit comes with new VSS and headgaskets. The only stuff you probably won't use are a few turbo gaskets and crush washers. It doesn't come with an oil pump gasket or throttle body gasket (but there's no reason for you to remove it from the intake plenium). It's cheeper to buy the whole gasket kit anyway then each one individually. Even if you have a few left over.

A beer it is. I appreciate the replies!



Alright, I'm going to have to sit down and look at my numbers on this stuff. I've already bought a few gaskets, so I'll end up in the hole that much more if I do the kit. And if I buy the kit with the VSS and Bay Speed supplies their own with the head work, that's another ~$50 tossed. I don't know what the odds of selling a set of VSS on 3si are.

Am I looking at the right kit? Mentor lists it as a "Overhaul gasket set" for $216.47. Should I be checking anywhere else? I've bought some things at Mentor because their pricing seems decent and their shipping is fast. I've never bought from Parts Dinosaur yet, but I'm sure I will sooner or later.

I already took the throttle body off AND bought the gasket for it. Oh well, peace of mind, then.

Yeah, I'll have to think that through. I'm really tempted to leave the cam seals and worry about them if they show any problems.

Again, thank you for the input, I really appreciate it!

Brett

The cam seals will probably leak once the cams are reinstalled. The cams need to be removed in order to replace the VSS.

I might be looking at doing a VSS job for a guy out here. Let me confirm that he still wants me to do them and I'll take the extra set off your hands.

Yeah, after thinking it over some more, what you're saying makes too much sense.

Since I've never done this kind of work before, the odds are already stacked against me. I don't need to nickel-and-dime this project into certain failure with gaskets. I'll just buy the kit and be done with it.

I'm looking at the kit from Mentor @$216, but I'll contact them tomorrow and see what's all in it first. Does anyone have any suggestions for any other sources? Part Dinosaur has a couple kits, but they are not OEM. I don't know how important that is, but I've read opinions on 3si more than a few times that OEM is a good (the best?) choice for gaskets.

On another note, I plan on bringing the heads to Bay Speed tomorrow, so that's cool.

Thanks again, G-ELL -- for the warning (twice) and for helping me to go the right way on the gaskets/seals!

Brett

Update:

G-ELL, thanks for the offer on the VSS, I appreciate that. But, Bay Speed called me and used the VSS from the gasket set on the rebuild. Just came in the mail today and I ran them over there.

The heads should be done early next week, at which point I can begin putting it all back together. I also receved the new oil pump -- I ordered both from Rockville. I hope to get that on this weekend, pending that I have all of the gaskets I need (might be short the pickup tube and filter bracket).

Mike at Bay Speed was extremely helpful, and he definitely knows what he's doing. He showed me the port work they did and the cuts they made on the valves and explained why they did it. Cool. They also decked them, and replaced 5 valves that didn't look up to par to them.

I got the rod bearings done last week. Clearances looked acceptable -- .0015 to .002 on all new bearings, except for one that was a hair over .002. I only gauged the first old one, and it was .0015 in the center and moving toward .002 on the edge. Visually, none of the old bearings looked horrible to my untrained eye.

I'm still not sure of the odds of me getting this 100% right, but I'm going slow, and trying to know every step inside and out before I do anything. There is, however, a mounting tension as I get closer to Turning The Key for the First Time. Woohoo!

Brett

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone other than DR touched your heads! they're junk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



If you've ever watched mikie machine heads, it's worth the price of admission. (miller light. in a glass. he won't drink from a can...)

Did they flow bench it? I've always wanted to see them use that particular machine, but never been lucky enough to see it in action.

_________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!

Haha, I think they're in good hands.

I don't know if they were flow benched or not. I never even thought to ask. Mike gave the impression that they weren't doing a WHOLE lot in the porting, just basically cleaning up -- so I guess I just assumed no on the flow bench. He pointed out (from day one) how hogging out volume is not the goal for this application. He also said these heads had some pretty nice design features to begin with.

When he was showing me, he was pointing around the top of the chambers, around the area of the bosses. I think mainly on the exhaust side is what he was saying, but I didn't get down in there and look too closely while we were talking about it.

Update, copied mostly from a post at 3si:

Just picked up my heads. I don't know enough to tell how much porting he did (like Mike said, not a lot), but the cleanup/polish is obvious, and looks good. There were casting flaws jumping out at me before -- even with my untrained eye. All gone.

If anyone cares to see pics, say the word. I'd be interested to get some opinions from some of you more knowledgeable people.

Actually, I also posted some pics to a thread about some ebay headers on 3si, I'd appreciate if you pros have any opinions on the fit and finish of those if you have a minute to check it out:

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=349216 Pics are in post 43.

It's in the NA section, so I understand if you TT guys don't want to mingle with us unwashed masses.

Bay Speed Center in De Pere, Wisconsin -- RECOMMENDED. Very fair price, knowledgeable, helpful, done when he said, and I could tell he cared about what he was doing. When I get a VR4, I will be going back to them. A+

On to putting everything back together. Dear God, please help me to not screw this up.

Brett

Just like to say thanks to you guys for the input.

I got everything back together last night, and everything is good. Couple minor details to work on, but overall the car feels healthy and stronger than before. I'm extremely happy with the results.

I'll be driving it long enough to know that it's solid and healthy -- then if I can sell it with no issues and a clear conscience, I will start seriously considering selling it and going turbo. Now that I've become more intimately familiar with the 6G72/3S, the main issues that steered me away from turbo no longer exist.

I shouldn't admit it, but I paid a dealer $700 to change my timing belt back when I bought the car. Dagnabit! Live and learn.

Thanks again for the help, much appreciated!

Brett