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ttangel
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:17 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:25 pm Posts: 2502 Location: Green Bay
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http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=309635maddog wrote: ok first off i know its G-tech. some say good, some say bad. anyway as far as im concerned for testing mods on the same vehicle, at the same air temp, on the same road, same settings its much better than the butt meter.
that said, i used mine to see if i could get some results. G-tech says to acurratly get hp and torque numbers, start from a standstill, roll launch, half throttle or less to 3500 rpms then shift easily into 2nd and then floor it to redline, coast and then it should have the run stored.
worked flawlessly for me. curves are nice and smooth and did repeated runs to get averages. remember this is net hp and torque. that means drivetrain drag and rolling drag and aero drag are all eating up power from the engine. i have the rpms set correctly and set the weight to 3900lbs. i figure if anything me and the car are heavier.
remember i have a 5-spd trans but have modified the drivetrain to accept 6-spd parts so overall gearing is different than U.S. 6-spd cars these are all averages of 3 runs.
first set of data is rwd with the stock 5-spd rear end Hp 239.5 @ 6128 rpm torque 208.0 @ 4598 rpm
next is rwd with a U.S. 99 6-spd rear end Hp 279.4 @ 6125 rpm torque 255.3 @ 5108 rpm
next is awd with standard U.S. 6-spd front diff and rear end Hp 287.2 @ 6055 rpm torque 277.0 @ 4951 rpm
i expect more power to come with the awd at later tests because i had to pull the trans i.e. reset the computer. after normilizing my fuel trims are usally at 81.2% but they didnt reset in time for the test so they were still running 100% which means i was still on the rich side. im now in iowa again which means 92 oct instead of 93 so i cant do any awd runs again till i get home.
i attribute low numbers with the 5-spd rear end becasue of the lower gear ratio and less load being there to spool the turbo. others have noticed this too with mr gears and such like Bret B. i could easily feel the difference right after i switched to the 6-spd in 2nd gear. in third it wasnt as big of a difference.
these runs were done on 13psi, 93 oct, 35ish degrees F, stock ecu, stock injectors, auto dsm 13g's. stock ic's
i did this mainly to help prove that awd is faster than rwd with our cars. we suspect the difference comes from more power loss from all power going throu the rear end and t-case.
i think the G-tech is fairly accurate when set up right. i tested it on a friends car who had be dynoed. the results where fairly accurate. obviously there was a power drop from the air resistance but the hp and torque curve shapes where nearly identical. ok, I was thinking about this for a while when the JDM gearing for the 6 speeds was all busting out, but didn't want to say anything. Now that there is actually a bit of evidence (G-tech, I know, I know.) to put with the theory I wouldn't mind discussing it. As most of us should know, turbos are load driven. that's why you can't boost by simply reving the engine at a traffic light. So people were installing these gears to det a lower drive ratio, and therefore increase torque. This would mean more pull, but less top end. The problem comes in with the fact that the turbos require longer gearing to build boost as more effort spent by the engine will result in better spool of the turbos. This is why many people running big block turbos leave a longer geared rear-end in their car. With an NA, this is an awesome way to get torque. with a turbo, your stealing the energy in the exhaust, and while your wheel torque goes up, the engine needs less effort to drive the wheels from the greater torque multiplication of the driveline. Thus, less load, and less power coming from the turbo. The higher gears, as Maddog noted, seem unchanged, because at that time the engine still has enough load on it to produce similar energy in the exhaust. So wtf... right? I think that this gearing option could still be useful, if a two step system was used. building boost at the line through adding unburnt gas to the exhaust stream. This would give you boost off the line, but I'm unsure how it would effect 2nd gear, unless the boost could be carried over. hopefully by that point you will be high enough in RPM to give sufficent enegery to the turbos. The thing is, I don't know what turbos Maddog is running. If he's pimping 9beasts, everyone with larger turbos will have even worse results! There will be the same energy trying to drive a larger turbo. THis could make those cars tremendous dogs in lower gears, at the beginning of the RPM band. *worse than just large turbos themselves. Anything that I have overlooked? Discuss.
_________________ Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!
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ver fer
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:33 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:04 pm Posts: 767 Location: Oshkosh
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I do agree to some extent. I after riding in my cousins STI a few times that with the short gear ratio it gave the feeling more power ( pulled hard,ran through the gears fast), but in reality it had less power and was slower even with less weight. I do see the problem with lower gear ratios making turbos move in and out of there efficency band. I think that the longer you can in the peak torque/hp band (within reason) the faster you should run. This is only my unproven theory and can be discussed in more depth on Fri. On the other hand I had considered the lower gearing to possibly lessen the stress on the driveline. Since first gear already kind of sucks the need to launch at a high rpm to get the car moving try and spool the turbos which never really don't have a chance to get spooling. By lowering the gear ratio it maybe possible to launch at lower rpm and reduce the shock to the driveline. sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes I'm late for class.
_________________ '94 vr4- Now with extra slowness
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unclebenny
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:21 pm |
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:27 am Posts: 934 Location: Oconomowoc WI
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Trevor did some calculations on 3SI in a thread about the jdm gears. His conclusion was that his car (with 14B's and 544awhp) would be marginally slower. Maddog has rear wheel drive. I enjoy the way my car feels with them, and even if its slightly slower, I would do it again for the "fun" factor. The jdm gears combined with my 8300 redline should be interesting with the 650's.
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G-ELL
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:21 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:18 am Posts: 3153 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
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The idea is to find the happy medium.
Ever since the MR gears came available, I thought about getting them. Unclebenny has them, and I like the way the car drives with them on the street.
Then I took my car to the track.
It really depends on what you want to use your car for. In terms of a car that performs best in the 1/4 mile, you want to select a gear where you reach your peak HP at the end of the 1/4 and not shift more than you have to for best results.
In my car, I have to shift into 4th gear just a couple hundred feet before the end which is more time lost, and the car doesn't pull nearly as well in 4th because of the extra load. A gear that puts less load would help (like the 4th gear with the MR ratio), however, a raised rev limiter would do me more good because then I wouldn't have to shift into it at all and I'd be cossing the finish line in 3rd right near 8K rpms. That would be the optimal setup for my car.
Now, let's go back to Unclebenny's car with the 9beasts. What did he trap, 105mph with the stock gearing? I can't remember and can't see his sig because of the internet filters at work... At any rate, on his car, making the redline come sooner in 3rd gear would actually benifit his setup because he'll be closer to his peak HP at the end of his run (Have to look at his dyno sheets to find where that is exactly, then have him run a few times in the 1/4 to see what rpms he finishes in to see if it really is optimal. I will bet a 4 pack of bawls it is.). This is why the JDM GTO's performed so much better. The biggest difference was the gearing.
On say, Matt Monnets car (just as an example), by my logic above, the MR gears might benefit his 1/4 miles because he needs to use 4th gear. Out of all the gears available (5 speed, stock 6-speed, MR 6-speed), the MR 6-speed one probably puts him closer to his peak HP at the end of the 1/4.
Going back to your "load makes boost" comment. This is actually a terrible argument. It's correct, but we both know too much load robs power. If that weren't true, the guys who run lighter flywheels, UDPs, CF driveshafts, or even anyone who does weight reduction wouldn't see any positive results. Our dinky little TDO4s definately don't need more load to spool faster.
So, in simpler terms, the benifit the gearing would show on anyones car depends on the mph the car traps in. It's just a matter of selecting the right one for your setup.
Make sense?
_________________ 06 Blue EVO 9

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G-ELL
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:28 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:18 am Posts: 3153 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
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ver fer wrote: I do agree to some extent. I after riding in my cousins STI a few times that with the short gear ratio it gave the feeling more power ( pulled hard,ran through the gears fast), but in reality it had less power and was slower even with less weight. Same reason BPU 1G DSMs do very well in the 1/4. The 5.5 final drive ratio is perfect for their trap times. I never cared for cruising down the highway at 70mph at 3500rpms though...
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ttangel
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:23 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:25 pm Posts: 2502 Location: Green Bay
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I've often wondered about the MR cars and their 1/4 mile time differences. Everyone claimed the magic change was the fact that the gearing was different. and possible wieght lightening. but finding fact on the MR specs is like finding the Truth on 3si. it's there, but you have to dig. Quote: Trevor did some calculations... yeah. I have a large amount of faith in what he posts on 3si. but I still take alot of his posts with a grain of salt. he pretty much tells everyone on a TD04 turbo that 550s are more than you will ever need. I think that both Greg and I can come up with a fair arguement to that logic, and if you ever do bolt on those 650s, you will to, Eric. Plus, calcs are just calcs. there are many re-life factors that those 1/4 mile generators don't use. And the best ones that I've seen use engine dyno results. I don't think many people use that one. Quote: The jdm gears combined with my 8300 redline should be interesting with the 650's. They may be faster in the upper gears. As Greg said, in the upper gears US spec gears may be to "heavy" for lack of a better term. I think this may touch on the real reason that the MR cars in japan were faster than our normal times. combined with the rev limit bump, there might be a lot in that car with those gears. Also possible that the 9bs fall off at red line. but with the JDM gears you will spend less time in this part of the rpm band. meaning, more time at 12psi which would help overall performance. Quote: Going back to your "load makes boost" comment. This is actually a terrible argument. It's correct, but we both know too much load robs power. If that weren't true, the guys who run lighter flywheels, UDPs, CF driveshafts, or even anyone who does weight reduction wouldn't see any positive results. Our dinky little TDO4s definately don't need more load to spool faster. I dunno about this. I think that load makes boost is a perfect discussion amoung our cars because we have the 5 speeds, the 6 speeds, and the JDM gears. all similar down to a rediculous level, except the gearing. simliar weights, engines, blah blah blah. I do know that when you run a five speed, and they get to start in the "good" area of their 3rd gear, you gonna get pummeled. that's a beautiful gear for the 5 speeds. nice and long. talking weight reduction and changing gear ratios I think is comparing apples to oranges. sheding roating mass, and dropping pounds off your car are very different and not easily comparable. To much load robs power, though. that's why we start in 1st gear instead of 6th. which is where your "pick the gearing for the 1/4 mile time you want to run" comes in... I'm just really curious to know the differences in the HP that Maddog recorded with G-tech that changed only the gear ratios... Unless it made the cars power levels "like it was in different gears." Something is still nagging at me about this, I just can't put my finger on it.
_________________ Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!
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G-ELL
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:11 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:18 am Posts: 3153 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
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I could honestly give a crap about what Maddog's G-Tech says.
Show me something more concrete (back to back dyno pulls with each of the different gearing on the same car), and I'll buy into it.
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unclebenny
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:43 pm |
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:27 am Posts: 934 Location: Oconomowoc WI
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I trapped 109 with the beasts. I think I can squeeze close to 110 traps outta them on via upgraded fuel.
I'm not saying they are the mod everyone must have, or they allow me to run 25 psi in 5th gear to redline on 9 b's, but they are "fun."
_________________ 
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ttangel
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:52 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:25 pm Posts: 2502 Location: Green Bay
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DJAuggie
_________________ Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!
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G-ELL
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:37 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:18 am Posts: 3153 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
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unclebenny wrote: I trapped 109 with the beasts. I think I can squeeze close to 110 traps outta them on via upgraded fuel. Oh... Well that changes things a little bit. I'm not sure what speed 8300rpms is in JDM 3rd gear, but if you cross the finish line at that moment, then we will know. However, now there's something else I just thought of and that's the HP curve of the 9B's. Guys have better luck shifting at 6K instead of redline with the 9B's. The question I have is, would shifting into 4th improve the ET or would staying in 3rd until 8300 net better results? Something you should try next time you're at the track Eric.
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ver fer
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:37 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:04 pm Posts: 767 Location: Oshkosh
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With the jdm gears + 9bs I would say shift into 4th, with the 650s I'd say run them out.
_________________ '94 vr4- Now with extra slowness
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G-ELL
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:22 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:18 am Posts: 3153 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
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ver fer wrote: With the jdm gears + 9bs I would say shift into 4th. If that were the case, then maybe a higher rev limiter is not necessary, and Eric should trade me his ECU for my stock one.
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ttangel
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:22 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:25 pm Posts: 2502 Location: Green Bay
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or he should make more horsepower and be all the way through 4th by the end of the 1/4. 
_________________ Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!
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